At E3 while checking out Left 4 Dead 2, I had a chance to talk to a few of the game’s developers at Valve. Amongst questions about the game, I snuck in a bit asking why Valve won’t develop for the PS3. It’s not because they’re a small studio, it’s because the PS3 is too complex. Game designer Tom Leonard had this to say:
The PC and the 360 are just more straightforward. We can focus on what we want to do, which is make game experiences, instead of sweating bullets over obscure architectural decisions they make with their platform. [...] I didn’t come into this business in the 90s because of some technical fetish. I came in because I wanted to give people experiences that made them have fun.
That’s not to say the PS3 doesn’t have some fun games, but Valve chooses to take the route of less resistance. And with Sony saying the PS3 is intentionally hard to to develop for, Valve might have a point. But I think they’re choosing the Xbox 360 because of the similar architecture and coding as PC gaming, which is their bread and butter. Either way, don’t expect Valve games to grace your PS3 anytime soon.
Sounds like a smart move really and especially so with how hard it is to make a return on investment for the platform.
I doubt Microsoft would still give them that bag of money if they released it on the PS3. lol Don’t fall for their BS. Let’s not kid ourselves, this game could be directly ported without any major tech changes. This game does not push any boundaries at all. L4D was a basic mod.
In fact, since the PS3 has by far the better processor it would only be a better experience with more enemies on screen at once.
How much time have you spent programming AAA video games for PS3?
I agree that the PS3 can handle L4D hands down. Valve’s decision was not based on hardware specs. It was based on the operating system. Valve is familiar with the Windows operating system and therefore can create L4D for the PC and Xbox360 with the greatest of ease. The PS3 on the other hand uses a Linux based operating system which a lot of people are not to familiar with. L4D can not just be “ported over” just for that fact. It is a completely different language.
all PS3 Development kits guess what the main platform they are built on is Windows the PC side of crap is Windows not linux i dont know where your got your information from but yea, what makes the PS3 really crap is Documentation and support for Developers also the architecture is the Pian in the Ass on the PS3 to Develop for many high end Developers have said that Hell John Carmack of Id software stated it many times his dislike of the PS3 and the Design choices sony made and currently last we all knew Rage Id software next game is still running liek crap on the PS3 compared to the 360 and PC and Mac platforms
*sigh* The PS2 and PS3 use a multi core architecture RISC architecture in the CELL processor where each core is optimized for something different or has a completely different instruction set geared towards different aspects of gaming. So one core is geared towards instructions that are used a lot in AI, another geared towards graphics, another towards physics, another basic computing, etc, etc. The Cell had 8+ of these, its not like you can just write an application thread.
Now this gives the PS3 a much greater potential and it is very advanced then other CPU architectures where you have one or more cores that are identical since all of these operations, the AI, the graphics etc can be processed in parallel by cores that can run these operations faster. The downside is that its a major bitch to program for, and has a much MUCH higher learning curve. That’s why the early PS2 games looked terrible and didn’t compare the the much weaker processor Dreamcast because the programmers had no idea how to make the thing work. The PS3 has 4x as many cores at the PS2.
Linkage:
Cell (PS3): http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/02/cell-1.ars
Emotion Engine: (PS2) http://arstechnica.com/hardware/reviews/2000/02/ee.ars
Wholly crap, did I just make a rational argument and provide links to back it up, I must have forgotten this was the Internetz.
Anyway, seriously, Sony’s way of doing things has major advantages, in that the PS3 platform will be unlocking its potential over the long term (just think about how good the later PS2 games looked next to the X-box with a faster processor), but its drawback is it is nothing like anything else and is hard for development studios to specialize on and it takes a while for the development tools to mature. Where as MS is all about development tools, they make Visual Studio. Both companies have different philosophies, it means we’ll probably see the X-box 720 about halfway through the PS3’s life cycle, but it will release a slew of games in the meantime, and the PS3 will have its games look better and better over time as studios begin to master the platform.
Valve getting money, put the fanboy arguement away, they are a PC developer, they don’t have the in house knowledge and any port they make won’t appeal to their core audience. Anyone who owns a PS3 likely owns a PC and can play it on that (which is really the best platform to play any First Person Shooter). PC and 360 use the same DirectX API, so they make a PC game and with a little bit extra work they can make it work on 360. The PS3 would likely require a whole other team the same size as the other two combined just to make up for their lack of expertise on the platform.
“*sigh* The PS2 and PS3 use a multi core architecture RISC architecture in the CELL processor where each core is optimized for something different or has a completely different instruction set geared towards different aspects of gaming.”
Ugh… right. So how is that possible if they disable the malfunctioning SPEs as part of the manufacturing process (a failed SPE would mean a binned Cell chip in your case)? The idea was that you would separate your programming aspects that way, not reduce the hardware down to specific tasks. You’ve got your wires crossed.
David i must say that is one of the best arguments ive seen on any message board for a long time. Fair, pricise and not blured by some fanboy attitude, props to ya
L4D was a $20 game at best. The dated graphics engine and shallow gameplay got stale quickly. I bought a used copy and thank goodness I did. I was able to get my full refund a couple of days later.
As a PS360 owner, I couldn’t care less if the title were PC only.
And what game store takes back used copies for a full refund? OH! You sold it back for 10% of what you paid for it. I get it!!!
Um dude, GameStop has a seven day policy on used games. If you decide to return it after seven days you get a FULL refund, read a receipt dude.
gamestop takes used games back within 7 days. i buy use games all the time and return them. i call it free renting
fool, if you buy a used game at gamestop you have 30 days to return it for full refund. check yourself and shut up
Read your Gamestop return policy: “ALL used games can be brought back within seven days of purchase for a full cash refund”
It has always been this way. And don’t say, “Not at the one I go to”, because it is a company wide policy.
thats why i will keep downloading there game and playing them for free
thank you 360
…and thank you PC. I love their games, but I spend my cash on PS3 exclusives and good multiplats like CoD. But thanx, don’t bother and keep it up Gabe!
I remember reading a article on N4G, Valve was being criticized for L4D-2…People were saying that it is just an expansion pretty much….They shouted “Give us a fair shake”….Hmmm, why don’t they give the PS3 fair shake?? Screw Valve…They says it’s so difficult to develop for..I wonder if MS is paying them to be stupid, or they are really crappy developers.
the guy’s at valve, especially gabe newell, are a bunch of lilttle mija’s who don’t know how to program. they cry and cry about how hard it is. well to me, they’re just bitching out and not stepping up and showing what they can really do.
This argument would have made sense if Sony didn’t make something to help developers like Valve called Phyre Engine. Here’s a little article about it http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2631.html
Don’t worry, I don’t expect it. Nor does it bother me. In the very least, I just download their crap and play it for free on my PC. Win win situation for me. Lose lose for Valve.
Morne
There are many developers who take the plunge in developing for the PS3 and yet Valve can’t seem to do it?
It’s not a matter that they “can’t” do it, it’s that in the end, it’s not worth the extra time it takes to develop code for the PS3 at the same time at the PC and 360.
The hardware differences force a different set of standards in the way you write your code for the PS3, while the 360 runs much like a multi core PC.
For example, on the PC/360 you can write have long running threads which access the full range of hardware memory. You can even offload tasks to the GPU.
On the PS3, the SPUs are not designed for long running threads and physically cannot access the full range of hardware memory, and are restricted to a paltry 256kb including code size (128kb if you want it to be efficient). Also, you cannot offload tasks as readily to the GPU as the PS3’s GPU is inefficient by comparison – the PS3s bulk power lies in the SPUs, not the PPU or GPU (RSX)
While any game valve does can in fact be ported to the PS3, and would run pretty damn well on the PS3, the sheer amount of time and resources required to port the code and then optimize it for the architecture outweighs the benefit when they could just be working on new titles and IP for architecture they already know (and therefore develop quickly)
Don’t call bullshit when you know nothing of software development.
so what, walve developers, sony have namco in their poketc, who are at the heart of arcade tech, they have more devs than every other company,
microsoft, u’d think, have more, they have bungie, epic, valve. & god knows what else that they could muster up a the strum of a drum.
but the big so what, comes from a rumor i herd’ sony have secured rage and basicaly made id software internal devs for ps3, id made wolfenstein QUAKE, and DOOM, the first shooters, id are the best .
their competition, has always been unreal devs. which now produce multiplatform games and , wel, infact, yeh unreal engine has kinda taken over, . i rekon 50 percent of games use ther tech, 75 percent if were talking strictly shooters.
either way, id have the know-how ,. im saying this hoping rage is good, otherwise take it from quake 3, which runs faster than some games i play today. chek quakelive.com for a free copy./play in your browser.
if im right id and cellius (which is namco devs’) will rinse’ the ps3s chips so hard your eyes are gonna’ bleed. peace out ya’ll xbots.
I just played L4D the other day and was not impressed at all. I was excited to play this game because i love killing zombies on my 42 inch LCD and zombie games are fun. But it didnt deliver anything new it looked like I was playing on the nintendo 64, the graphics are outdated and its just kind of a lame game. The whole time i was playing with a friend i kept thinking i would rather play nazi zombies on COD:WAW. The only reason i played the game was because my friend has a 360. I made the smarter choice and went with PS3. Most of my PS3 games are exclusives and let me tell you, i have played lots of 360 exclusive but only PS3 exclusives really WOW me. If anyone has not played inFAMOUS yet your dumb it is efing awesome just like all the other PS3 exclusives. So i really dont care if valve gives us any games im not very impressed with anything ive seen from them anyways
You’re a moron if you think L4D felt like playing a an N64 game. Do you play with your eyes open or is your graphics eye that shallow? Get a clue.
COD:WAW zombie mode is a nice addition, buts lets be honest…L4D has much better zombie slaying experience. But they are both solid efforts.
I’ll take hordes of fast moving (ala 28 Days Later) zombies over your typical Night of the Living Dead zombies. Its just way more intense..period.
to add to that, namco are going to make it clear with tekken 6, that 360 is not as powerful. unless unreal get back in the game, and release an unreal 4 engine, this would change everything, and you know what, i smell that coming on up and over the horizon, dang.
Everyone knows that Valve is a very lazy developer. Just look at Gabe Newell, he is one fat lazy bastard. Even if they knew how to develop for the PS3 they wouldn’t. God forbid they do some work. Release HL3 Already!
It’s their decision who they develop for. You have to assume they are going to make the decision that’s most profitable for them. What else should they do? It’s unfortunate for PS3 customers that Sony made a device that for whatever reason is not profitable enough for them to make the game. I’m not actually a big fan of valve either way, but it’s not like they’re the only ones complaining.
anyone playing L4D on a console is crazy anyway. this is a nonissue
Look at all the fucking sony fanboys saying valve is lazy and their games suck. Your saying L4D is not fun, but heres the thing, it would be alot funner if you play with friends, I know, you don’t have any, I understand. Well I think it is AWESOME.
Valve can program their game on any console they want, stop craping on them for that.
You had me till,”…alot funner if you play with friends, I know, you don’t have any, I understand.”
FSCK Valve – I have NEVER bought a valve game and wil NEVER buy one in the future. THEY FSCKING SUCK!!!!
Valve can stay with 360 and PC for all I care. It’s not like they are the company that they once were and claim to still be. L4D2 is a joke – they took the DLC that was promised, compiled it into yet another half hearted pile of dog doo and are going to sell it for 3 times what they should. Go ahead – if they feel that developers like Insomniac, Guerilla, Naughty Dog and such, “sweat bullets over obscure architectural decisions”, then leave it to them to give gamers an all access pass to amazing games and incredible worlds pulled straight from their imaginations. I’m sure the effort was well worth it in the end.
Forget Valve, screw Gabe Newell and the dipstick in the article -go make Dreamcast quality games and shut the hell up about the PS3 – it’s over your collective heads.
@Used Cisco – at this point, yes, they are the only ones complaining.
First off Valve has constantly delievered great games thru the years. Their games always recieve high reviews from the press and consumers. I own all systems, but prefere my 360 and PS3. Most of you guys need to stop being haters, it’s Valves decision not to develop for the PS3, accept it. Comments like their lazy and they don’t know how to program are just ridiculus and show your stupidity. It’s my opinion but I think L4D was addicting, but thats my opinion and obviously manny other people by the great reviews the game recieved.
valve obviously dont have the best codies or programmers so they will just put out an average game.. gabe yer fat git
There are Valve games on PS3, and there will be more in the future. Part of the publishing deal with EA was that they could outsource PS3 programming to Electronic Arts, like what happened with the Orange Box.
You PS3 Fan Fags are just sore because MS rocked PS3’s world at this year’s E3. Just accept it and stop being sore losers. VALVE is right.. Time is money people!!!
Yeah, because everyone knows that Valve sucks at programming… Why bother making life hard for yourself? They gave you the Orange Box, so deal with this idea: They CAN do it for PS3, but that doesn’t mean they HAVE to.
Again? ahahahah again TO HARD? this fu.cking fat guy of valve is so boring, or is completly idiot (probably) or only is a Xbox fanboy… my opinion? i have Xbox and PS3 and I HATE VALVE… i love zombie but LF4 is not a good game of zombie.
Yeah Left 4 Dead is so lame at 13 weeks it outsold Killzone 2 by 240k. With 22 million Playstation 3’s out there how do you explain this over hyped exclusive only being able to hit 1.63 to L4D’s 1.87 million. Either L4D is better than you say, Killzone 2 is not as good as you say or your support as so-called Sony faithful SUCK. So which is it. Look, Sony dug this hole for themselves by reaching too far, too fast. In the process making it unprofitable for some companies to wrestle with their architecture. Who’s fault is that? All of these companies love to make games and would like for their work to be on as many platforms as possible, but bills have to be paid and food put on the table. Is that really so hard to understand?
Weaksauce. Sounds like some lazy peeps in that piece.
The Source engine could easily be ported to the PS3, PS3 exclusives have the best graphics and animation, and rivals the AI of the best games out there.
Valves games don’t even come close, technically, to the best on the current next gen consoles.
Gabe Newel used to work for Microsoft, that probably has a lot to do with his bias against Sony and the PS3.
I don’t really care if the PS3 gets the the Left 4 dead series, PS3 owners won’t be missing much anyway, its a very average game. I own it for the PC, I wasted $50.00 for it.
for everyone who commented that the PS3 has a better processor(Valve=McDeveloper ) please show proof. Because every multi. devloper says other wise.
I agree with this sooooo fucking much.
Valve has also stated that making games for the PS3 is soooo much harder to do. Why waste resources to try and make a PS3 game when they can use the same resources to make an incredible 360/PC game?
And to every fag saying “Hurr durr whars mah HL3?” Gabe said that he wanted to do HL2E3 before HL3 would even be considered. Fucking retards. This entire place smells of PS3 faggotory.
Sounds to me like they lack the skills or technology to develope games for a far more advanced system… Ubisoft does it along with countless other developers. But the big sack of money micr$oft gives valve might also help in their decision to not develope for the ps3.
Too complicated = amateur developers
IMO…how come no else is whining or complaining, EA use to bitch about the same thing, but they grew some balls and learned about the system, and now you are getting much better looking games (Ex: Deadspace..etc). If they want to stick to simple things, then fine, but don’t say its complicated until you actually make an effort to try and create a game on it…to me it sounds like a lack of self confidence. They could be reaching a much bigger audience and probably generate more revenue if they included the PS3 into the mix…but hey, if they don’t want to do it..that’s there loss.
sounds to me like valve are not the skilled programmers people would like to think they are… ignoring a whole console is a crazy thing to as it would certainly generate a return for them…
Some things come to companies easier than others. Stop the fanboyism about money and taking company sides. Lets say that you know everything about how a motorcycle works, then all of the sudden the company wants you go into diesel engine work…not so easy is it? You MAY eventually get the hang of it, but why should you if you just prefer one over the other?
Technology changes, and some people learn to adapt with it, but others choose to sit astride from it because it would take more training and cost more money.
…In the mean time, we can all just download the torrent of the PC or xbox 360 versions for free while the pirate proof PS3 tortoise continues to lure the chunk of it’s 120 million PS2 owning audience over to its newer platform when the price and time becomes right.
Who cares what Valve says? They’re a one trick pony whose speciality has always been heavily scripted FPS fare (L4D wasn’t, you’ll remember, developed in house).
Valve has never put out a bad game. L4D is a blessing for PC and 360 gamers. It’s truly a shame that it’s not on Sony’s PS3. The defensive nature of PS3 owners (those that ONLY own the PS3, of course) is unbelievable. If Sony fans spent half the time being interested in games outside of the PS3 console instead of bashing anything or anyone that isn’t on/doesn’t support development for the PS3 the quality of their lives would improve exponentially.
Im just going to say MS paid them deal with it they just don’t want to comeo ut and say it
Too complicated is Valve’s way of saying we’re too lazy to learn to develop games for the PS3. I have seen lots of interviews with real game developers and they all say the PS3 isn’t complicated at all. It’s just different. Well Valve, if you won’t make PS3 games I won’t buy your crap. I don’t care about the 360 and PC gaming isn’t that great.
Hey, XBox fanboy, shove your 360 up your ass.
You PS3 fanboys crack me up. Valve doesn’t want to develop for the console IN LAST PLACE because of the time and money it would take to produce a title that would only sell a few units because the PS3 IS IN LAST PLACE. Guys, the videogame business is not a sport where companies rack up scores by proving that they can expertly program, it’s a business where if they don’t turn a profit, they quit functioning, period. The first Playstation won, not because of its powerful processor, but because making games on cartridges (N64) was insanely expensive. It’s not quite the same scenario, but pretty close. Now if the PS3 actually had a price drop and sold like the PS2, Gabe and the boys would be all over it. (BTW, making fun of a game developer because he’s fat is like making fun of a porn star because she likes having sex. Also, do you actually think Naughty Dog doesn’t have wads of Sony money coming out of their pockets!?! Please…)
To make L4D for PS3 they would need the same kinda help as first party developers get from sony, the help from the engineers that created the PS3. That’s why only first party games look good on PS3, because they had help to make the games run on the difficult hardware that PS3 haves. Sure they could get help, but it cost a lot and it takes time to make current engine to get it working on PS3. Only big companies like EA and Ubisoft have that kinda money, so they can hire that kidna help. Valve is a small studio with a engine made for PC that can be easily made to work in xbox360. Even Epic needed the help to make Unreal engine 3 to work on PS3, thankfully that help was offered by sony for free.
Yes and indie developers make games easily on PS3, but the games that they make aren’t any visually impressive so it would need all the power of cell to make it run.
ILikePopCans can go fuck him self bc moneysoft sux ball just like nintendo
No game is worth more than £20, L4D included. Can’t say I’ve ever been impressed with any of Valve’s games. I couldn’t get into any of the Half Life games, I played Orange Box on the 360, didn’t see what all the fuss was about. I’ve not played L4D yet, and I couldn’t give a toss what console it comes out on. I mean, most people own around 2 or 3 consoles anyway, so again, this is a dead in the water subject.
I don’t really care what Valve says at this point. I can’t see how this is seen as anything other than lazy. Other 3rd party devs have come up with some great games on the PS3. RE5, MGS4, SFIV, Fallout 3, GTA IV, Burnout Paradise, and COD4/COD:WAW were games that other 3rd party devs have managed to get running well on the PS3. So don’t use the excuse that its too hard, or its too difficult to get a return on the dev costs, or that 3rd parties don’t get enough support to code good games. The truth is that Gabe Newell and the rest of the fucks at Valve are too lazy to get off their fat asses to learn to program for something that isn’t just like a PC. That’s fine, but when they can’t stop badmouthing PS3 platform just because they chose to not make use of it, it makes them seem like children who are mad because learning to ride their bike for the first time is too hard. I can’t buy their games for PS3 and I don’t care. I could buy their games for PC but I won’t. Fuck Valve. Fuck them right in the ear.
as a PS3N360 owner………………..I will never spend my hard earn money on L4d 1or2…
For one…L4D series..is the most overrated lackluster attempt at gaming this generation….and it just shows the character of Valve as a company….and the owner..fat and lazy..
–L4D at this moment looks like a PS2 game 1st generation….current gen PS2 games looks far better…
–L4D has the WORST sound of any game that is considered A, AA, AAA, AAAA or AAAAAA game…IMO..terrible..it’s embressing that 3 years into 360 life cycle you have such an lackluster attempt for an exclusive……
–It’s obvious Valve is lazy….why would you not want to expand your herizons….and provide the best product and experience for your consumers?
Note to Valve “Life is hard and far from easy”……….the easy route is the lazy route…..
FYI: I do not know why this game received such hype…what a waste of time….and energy
–
To Persreika: Metal Gear Solid 4 wasn’t developed by a 1st party studio, and yet, it looks incredible…….
I believe it’s just an excuse to cover up their laziness/fanboyism.
[...] Source – http://loot-ninja.com/2009/06/09/valve-shuts-out-too-complicated-ps3 [...]
wow the one really bad thing about N4G is clicking a story link that brings me to a ps3 orgy. i finally understand why there are more negative ps3 gamers out there; its because you have plenty of time on your hands to comment due to the lack of games… another lame ass site blocked. PC FTW
Valve engine is crap period. L4D is an okay game but graphics is so outdated.
@Mark — very few, if any, multiplatform devs have stated that PS3’s processor is weaker than the 360’s. A lot of developers have historically complained about working with it just because its architecture is very dissimilar from what they are used to. Cell BE is way more advanced and powerful than the 360’s PPC Xenon. As an Electrical Engineering student with a fair amount of knowledge about microprocessor architectures I have no doubt that the Cell is the better proc, and not by a small margin. I would try to prove this to you by spilling technical jargon all over the place, but I doubt it would help. So if you want proof that the Cell is a more powerful processor than do some research yourself. I recommend you start by reading about IBM’s supercomputer research/development utilizing Cell BE — look up “IBM Roadrunner.” I mean for goodness sake, it broke the petaflop barrier. There are certainly hurdles for devs to overcome with Cell because of its uniqueness, but it is a powerhouse proc. Now when it comes to the PS3’s GPU versus the 360’s there is a larger debate as to which is more powerful, but it is fairly irrelevant because Cell was designed to take on a huge load of the GPU’s processes such as physics, shaders, etc. so that the GPU can focus on what it needs to do. But when it comes down to it, who cares? I can’t stand Microsoft and if Valve chooses not to make games for PS3 it doesn’t hurt me. The only games I care about that they develop are the Half-Life games anyways and those were meant to be played with a keyboard and mouse. But I will say that if any dev claims the 360 is more powerful than the PS3 than they are either a) an idiotic game dev or b) an even more idiotic PR person for the company. There is no doubt as to which is more powerful; PS3 wins hands down.